Eerie Descent
7:57 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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I don't know for sure, but Southampton don't seem to loan loads of their players out, and they seem the most successful at bringing young players through. They'll give a lot of them a start every now and then, and always seem to bring them on in games.
Not that I'm massively against the loan system, but I really do think that Burke and Cullen could be useful for us this season, Cullen to cover and get time in midfield as we're weak there, and we could've sold sold one of our old centre half's to blood Burke.
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
7:32 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Alex V 5:27 Tue Aug 8
'Let me be clear - I don't think top clubs should just throw in raw talent. I haven't said that and I don't think it. I'm discussing the merits of loans. Let's raise the debate a little beyond mud-slinging at made up opinions I didn't state and don't hold'
If that isn't what you think stop making literally hundreds of posts that can only be construed that.
As for the miffed 'childish' jibe, if I was being childish I'd point out that your posts suggest you have an unnatural interest in teenage boys.
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Alex V
7:28 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Alex V 7:15 Tue Aug 8
That wasn't a very good reply. What I should say is I agree with you success in a lower league can help the player. But if West Ham never bring the players into the senior squad it doesn't count for anything to us. Loans or accolades in league one are only a benefit to us if they produce players more ready for the premiership - there's very little evidence they do that imo. And isn't that the whole point?
Without being cold the aim really isn't to further the careers of Burke or Cullen. It may even be better for us to risk their careers for a better chance of success - to play them earlier with a greater risk of failure.
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Alex V
7:23 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Jaan Kenbrovin 7:03 Tue Aug 8
You're right - Arsenal have been doing it for a long time. They actually ended up buying one of the biggest analytics companies to bring them in-house.
>>> What analytics have you done on Burke and Cullen then to suggest they are ready?
I can only provide the hypothesis that I think they might be ready to contribute (and that if they aren't their time might be up). I can also suggest the club need paid professionals to analyse the same question. And that all the evidence seems to be that the loan system can't provide a good solution.
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Alex V
7:15 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Far Cough 7:06 Tue Aug 8
No, I agreed with your point.
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Far Cough
7:06 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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"What does it mean to West Ham that they got awards at Bradford? Nothing."
You're deliberately missing the point I made in that it's beneficial to the player's well being and confidence, which can only be a good thing
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Jaan Kenbrovin
7:03 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Alex V 6:19 Tue Aug 8
What analytics have you done on Burke and Cullen then to suggest they are ready?
Also, clubs do have data analytics in place. They monitor all sorts of things. I remember learning about Thierry Henry having the fastest sprint recovery time which obviously made him so deadly, and Arsene Wenger's use of it to decide on how best to use an aging Bergkamp.
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Alex V
6:47 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Far Cough 6:44 Tue Aug 8
I totally agree there are potential benefits. Especially to the player's status should they fail at the parent club. What does it mean to West Ham that they got awards at Bradford? Nothing. And that's after supposedly successful loans - many don't work out as well.
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Far Cough
6:44 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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You're deliberately painting an adverse opinion of the loan system to suit your agenda, why not cite the positives like Burke getting player of the year at Bradford and I think Cullen got one as well? That can only enhance their well being and stand them in good stead for the future
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Lee Trundle
6:42 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Speaking of intelligent assessments, you wanted us to keep Fletcher, V.
Shall I tell you what the Boro fans thought of his performance at the weekend?
"Lost" and "non existent" were two of the descriptions.
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Alex V
6:19 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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>>> You challenge the 'scientific' nature of players earning their stripes by proving what level they can cope with, and would rather go with giving kids a go based on gut feeling alone?
Again, just no. I'm very pro-analytics and I think there should be major investment in that so that the squad can be properly assessed within the club. I'm not a fan of gut feeling in the decision-making process at all - I am a fan of questioning received wisdom. 'Giving kids a go' is absolutely not what I want - I want a logical, rational approach based on intelligent assessment. Not just of individual players' ability, but of the policy of how to move the club forward, risk vs reward etc. The driving force of everything the club does should be towards improving results on the pitch - we are simply not getting the most out of the young players we produce imo and that needs to be tackled.
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Alex V
6:13 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Far Cough 5:52 Tue Aug 8
If you compare the worst aspects of not going on loan with the idealised perfect loan then of course the loan is better. Unfortunately not all loans work out that well, and players left to their own devices living out of hotels in the North of England don't always rise to the challenge of learning how to somehow become world class somehow by osmosis. There are lots of potential pitfalls of loans - learning bad habits, losing loyalty and optimism towards the parent club, lower standards of facilities and coaching, being poorly played in bad teams.
I prefer the option of keeping them at the club, let them train and be coached with the senior squad, let them feel part of the squad, and gradually introduce them to the team from the subs bench and in starts against suitable opposition. That, imo, is how to develop players for the premiership (in theory at least).
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Jaan Kenbrovin
6:02 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Alex V 5:45 Tue Aug 8
So based on very little then, if you take away their collective loan spells, leaving friendlies and a few appearances where Burke was thrown in the deep end after an injury crisis.
You challenge the 'scientific' nature of players earning their stripes by proving what level they can cope with, and would rather go with giving kids a go based on gut feeling alone?
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Far Cough
5:52 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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But that being in the squad here means they won't get many games, whereas at Bolton, they will be playing week in week out, so how does getting splinters in their arses here, help in their development?
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Alex V
5:49 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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What Chelsea do with their loans is an entirely different topic really. There is a logic to it, and I would argue it's a somewhat rational response to the general issues with the loan system that I'm talking about, ie they choose sheer volume because of the high failure rate (among other reasons).
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Alex V
5:46 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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ludo21 5:42 Tue Aug 8
Great shout. Totally agree.
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Alex V
5:45 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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>>> It seems to me and a lot of others on here, you were advocating using Cullen and Burke in our first team instead of loaning them out?
Yes because I think they've shown enough to be worth that chance. But more importantly I don't there's anything to be gained from shoving them out to Bolton. And any development of young players needs common sense applied. I wouldn't necessarily be throwing many youngsters in at Old Trafford on Sunday.
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ludo21
5:42 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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One change that would make an enormous difference to young players would be if there was a much bigger subs bench... something along the lines of internationals where the whole squad was available. Obviously you would have to set a number so, say a squad size 21 or 25.
A manager may be happy to bring on a couple of 18 year olds for 15 mins if the team is 2 or 3 up but obviously might not have them in the first choice of 6 subs normally.
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Lee Trundle
5:42 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Depending on what day it is, V will say his has praised Chelsea's loan system.
The following day, he'll come out with something that completely contradicts it though.
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stewie griffin
5:39 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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In fairness to V, I was reading this morning that Antonio CONTE is likely to leave Chelsea because he hasn’t got a big enough squad, and has only been allowed to sign 4 players at £130 million this summer.
It’s impossible to think he’s anything other than a massive cunt to be perfectly honest. They have 30 players out on loan at any one time.
Although…whilst typing, I realise this is not what V is saying…so I’ll shut up now
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Far Cough
5:35 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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OK, for clarity, what exactly ARE you saying in this regard?
It seems to me and a lot of others on here, you were advocating using Cullen and Burke in our first team instead of loaning them out?
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